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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 17:25:00 -
[1]
Trying to get some discourse going on ECM before the general whine on the EVE-O forums moves from nanoships to ECM. Not calling for a nerf of it either, but instead to look at the counter.
Sensor Dampeners are effectively countered by Sensor Boosters, which have a good use out of just countering them.
Tracking Disruptors are countered by Tracking Computers, although not too effectively, but they still have an all situational use just like Sensor Boosters.
ECCM does a very poor job of countering ECM and a full rack of them still leaves a specialized ECM ship a very good collective chance across all ECM to jam you. Furthuremore, ECCM provide no useful bonuses outside of 'countering' ECM unlike Sensor Dampeners and Tracking Computers.
Their effectiveness as either a counter or useful module should be improved fairly dramatically to make them a viable module to use in a midslot. Some ideas were simply increasing the amount of sensor strength provided percentage wise, or perhaps giving it another attribute such as lowering signature radius and having it utilize scripts.
Thoughts or suggestions on the matter?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.11 18:34:00 -
[2]
Well, ECCM does counter ECM, but since its different than other types of EWAR the large number of jamming tries you can get still essentially guarantees a jam.
For example, an Arazu/Lachesis with 3-4 damps cannot reasonably dampen a ship with a sensor booster due to stacking nerfs.
A jamming ship has a very high chance of jamming most ships. ECCM work very well versus a single ECM, but unlike other EWAR the collective jamming power of all the ECM modules such ships can carry still guarantee a jam statistically since there is no penalty between using 1 on a target or 7.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.12 01:28:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Atsuko Ratu
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 11/01/2008 19:18:04
It's pretty obvious the op has never used an ECM ship. ECCM doing a poor job? Are you serious?
Hurr. It's pretty obvious this poster is a child due to attacking someone trying to discuss a topic.
The issue is not about a single ECM vs a single ECCM. Reducing a 75% chance to be jammed to 40% works well. But ECM modules don't stack, so unlike fitting sensor boosters / tracking computers to counter Damps/TDs, no matter what you do on average you will be jammed.
It's that even if you fill your mid slots completely with ECCM, across all the ECM being used against you the collective jam chance is still over 100%. This is with your sensor strength being over 100. If you fit completely to counter ECCM, unlike Damps/TDs, its just not possible. And this is while you are only fitting modules that provide no other benefit (other than being harder to scan down), while the modules to counter other racial EWAR ships only need 1 fitted and provide useful benefits.
I know the situation I described is unlikely with the ECM ship carrying all specialized jammers, but its plausible. Players only fit ECCM when they know they're going to be facing a lot of ECM, so the vice versa is an acceptable argument point on the part of the ECM ship. I also understand you're a serious Rook pilot from what I can see; but I'm not calling for a nerf of ECM, just a boost to the counter should players chose to use it.
tl;dr: ECCM doesn't work too well, at least change it to scripts and add an alternative useful bonus that isn't situational.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.12 21:41:00 -
[4]
I was wrong with my examples (hurr math), so sorry about that.
The issue is because ECM is chance based, ECCM doesn't work as well as it should for taking up a critical slot while serving no purpose other than preventing getting jammed. If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it. This is untrue of Sensor Damps and Tracking Disruptors against ships fitted to counter them; a single Sensor Booster counters a specialized dampening ship very effectively. Furthermore, while the ECM ships may be poor at taking damage, they can easily sit outside of drone range and perma-jam any ship with enough speed to close range.
As a solely dedicated counter module, ECCM should provide more resistance to ECM, OR give it a secondary bonus that would give it some regular usage like SBs/TCs.
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 00:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: GateScout
Originally by: Ariel Dawn
If a specialized ECM ship directs a good deal of jamming towards an ECCM'd ship, they're still very likely to jam it.
I disagree. Show me a realistic ECM ship setup that has a probability of jamming a random battleship equipped with ECCM that is greater that 60% (i.e. "very likely").
Note: An ECCM'd BS will require 4 *racial* t2 jammers to get 60% probability of jamming.
I'll wait. 
Likewise, show me a Dampening or TD ship that can use their EWAR that can still do their job against ships fitting the counter. They're almost completely shutdown and the counter-module is still useful out of counter the respecitve EWAR counterpart.
Since each ECM module has its own independent chance of jamming, the pilot turns them on one by one until they get a jam. When you can fit 7 of them (most falcon setups), their targets are sitting pretty doing nothing.
I don't think adding a secondary bonus to ECCM would really be a problem and would encourage using it as a solution. Once nano-ship whiners move onto a new topic, ECM is the most likely target, and having it directly nerfed instead of a counter boost would likely be far less desirable to those who use it, eh?
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Ariel Dawn
Beets and Gravy Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.01.13 03:57:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Xequecal
ECM doesn't need a nerf. Multispecs have low jam strength and you can't just assume you'll always be able to match racial jammers to your enemies.
tell that to the whine brigade.
Aye. And of course, CCP will over react like in the case of Gallente drone ships. Drones no longer instantly recharging shields solved the balance issues of the Myrmidon since no amount of skill would save their drones; but they took it a step further.
Flying and training for a dedicated ECM ship is not for everyone, many of them doomed to fly them forever due to pressure from gang-mates. They should be able to control the battlefield when left unmolested; not calling for an ECM nerf.
If ECCM was to receive a secondary bonus, what would fit best? Signature radius is the one of the few remaining ship stats that have no modules that modify it, could be useful to increase lock times on the ship/reduce received damage.
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